kiddie skrev:En minns jag, har "vi" haft ett w-ljud någongång? Som i wolf, water, wine.

Nu säger vi ju vatten och vin med tydligt v-ljud.

kiddie skrev:Men i engelskan är det annorlunda. Kommer sig skillnaden av att de påverkades mer av romanska språk?

Geastrum skrev:Det engelska w-ljudet lär vara arkaiskt, alltså en kvarleva från forngermanskt språk.

The sounds /w/ (spelled ⟨V⟩) and /b/ (spelled ⟨B⟩) of Classical Latin developed into a bilabial fricative /β/ between vowels in Early Medieval Latin. Therefore, ⟨V⟩ no longer adequately represented the labial-velar approximant sound /w/ of Germanic phonology.

The Germanic /w/ phoneme was therefore written as ⟨VV⟩ or ⟨uu⟩ (⟨u⟩ and ⟨v⟩ becoming distinct only by the Early Modern period) by the 7th or 8th century by the earliest writers of Old English and Old High German.

kiddie skrev:Kollade på en youtubevideo som hävdade att själva ljudet w (som engelskt w) är från latinet.

Furienna skrev:Jag har då aldrig lyckats höra skillnaden i engelskan heller.

HGJ skrev:Har du någon länk?

kiddie skrev:Kollade på en youtubevideo som hävdade att själva ljudet w (som engelskt w) är från latinet

kiddie skrev:

HGJ skrev:Har du någon länk?

Vet inte om det är samma länk men såhär ungefär:

Romans left even more clues when they marched right into foreign language territory and got raided by Germanic tribes. Linguistic raids. "We're all taking words, guys! What do you want?" "Oy! Bring me back some wine!" "I want a wall!" Yep, those are Latin words. And bad accents. And they make it look like v's were w's at the time, something we'd already be suspicious of from poetry and word pairs.

water (n.1) Look up water at Dictionary.com
Old English wæter, from Proto-Germanic *watar (source also of Old Saxon watar, Old Frisian wetir, Dutch water, Old High German wazzar, German Wasser, Old Norse vatn, Gothic wato "water"), from PIE *wod-or, from root *wed- (1) "water, wet" (source also of Hittite watar, Sanskrit udrah, Greek hydor, Old Church Slavonic and Russian voda, Lithuanian vanduo, Old Prussian wundan, Gaelic uisge "water;" Latin unda "wave").

wolf (n.) Look up wolf at Dictionary.com
Old English wulf "wolf, wolfish person, devil," from Proto-Germanic *wulfaz (source also of Old Saxon wulf, Old Norse ulfr, Old Frisian, Dutch, Old High German, German wolf, Gothic wulfs), from PIE root *wlkwo- "wolf" (source also of Sanskrit vrkas, Avestan vehrka-; Albanian ul'k; Old Church Slavonic vluku; Russian volcica; Lithuanian vilkas "wolf;" Old Persian Varkana- "Hyrcania," district southeast of the Caspian Sea, literally "wolf-land;" probably also Greek lykos, Latin lupus).

HGJ skrev:

Geastrum skrev:Det engelska w-ljudet lär vara arkaiskt, alltså en kvarleva från forngermanskt språk.

Å andra sidan fanns ett sådant ljud även i det klassiska latinet. Bokstaven v var romarnas beteckning för detta ljud:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W

The sounds /w/ (spelled ⟨V⟩) and /b/ (spelled ⟨B⟩) of Classical Latin developed into a bilabial fricative /β/ between vowels in Early Medieval Latin. Therefore, ⟨V⟩ no longer adequately represented the labial-velar approximant sound /w/ of Germanic phonology.

The Germanic /w/ phoneme was therefore written as ⟨VV⟩ or ⟨uu⟩ (⟨u⟩ and ⟨v⟩ becoming distinct only by the Early Modern period) by the 7th or 8th century by the earliest writers of Old English and Old High German.

kiddie skrev:Så att wine och wall importerades så lätt kan ha berott på att språkljudet redan fanns?

Voiced fricatives[edit]

In Old English, [v], [ð], [z] were allophones of /f/, /θ/, /s/, respectively, occurring between vowels or voiced consonants. This led to many alternations e.g. hūs ('house') [huːs] vs. hūses ('of a house') [huːzes]; wīf ('woman') [wiːf] vs. wīfes ('of a woman') [wiːves]. In Middle English, these voiced allophones become phonemes, and are solidly established in Modern English as separate phonemes. The sources of the new phonemic distinctions are:

Borrowings from foreign languages, especially Latin, Ancient Greek, and Old French, which introduced sounds in positions they formerly did not occur; e.g. modern fine vs. vine (both borrowings from French); ether (from Greek) vs. either (native).

Dialect mixture between Old English dialects (e.g. Kentish) that voiced initial fricatives, and the more standard dialects that didn't do this. Compare fat vs. vat (both with f- in standard Old English), and fox vs. vixen (Old English fox vs. fyxen, from Proto-Germanic *fuhsa- vs. *fuhsin-).

No native Anglo-Saxon words begin in v- except those (vane, vat, vixen) altered by the southwestern England habit of replacing initial f- with v- (and initial s- with z-).

kiddie skrev:Undrar varför det fallit bort i svenskan, det är ju egentligen ett ganska trevligt ljud.

Älvdalskans alfabet och ljud
Buokstavin Namneð Auttaleð

[...]

Vv vi [v] kåv, skrauv
Ww wi [w] warg, rwaiða

Såvitt jag förstår är de allra flesta engelska ord som börjar på v av romanskt eller latinskt ursprung.

kiddie skrev:

Ganska märkligt.